Authenticity in Leadership

Authenticity in leadership isn’t about personality; it’s about emotional maturity. It’s about choosing to lead from the truth of who you are, not the version of yourself you were taught to perform. In this episode of Growing Up: The Age of Your Emotions, we explore what it really means to lead as your whole self, with clarity, courage, and alignment.

Many leaders learn to mask, minimize, or modify themselves to fit into rooms that were never designed with them in mind. But authenticity is not a luxury. It’s a competency. It’s a skill you build, a practice you return to, and a commitment you make to yourself and the people you lead.

Today, we’re talking about the courage it takes to unmask at work, the emotional cost of abandoning yourself to fit in, and the power of leading from your values, even when it feels risky. Because the truth is: when you lead as yourself, you give others permission to do the same.

This episode invites you to step into deeper alignment, reclaim your voice, and remember that your authenticity is not just welcome in leadership, it’s required.

Guest: Dr. Barbara Jones, Dean at Boston University School of Social Work 

Dr. Barbara Jones, PhD, MSW, FAOSW, is dean and professor at Boston University School of Social Work. She is one of the nation’s top scholars in the field of psychosocial oncology and palliative care. Prior to joining BUSSW, she was a member of the faculty and leadership at the UT Austin School of Social Work for nearly twenty years. At UT Austin, Jones served as university distinguished professor, Lockhart Memorial Professor in Direct Social Work Practice, founding director of the Institute for Collaborative Health Research and Practice, and associate dean for health affairs in the university’s Steve Hicks School of Social Work. She was also a distinguished professor and inaugural chair of the Department of Health Social Work at UT Austin’s Dell Medical School – a department she helped build to bridge the social work and medical schools. 

Jones earned her PhD and MSW in social welfare from the University at Albany (NY) and practiced as a clinical social worker for 15 years. She is currently on the national advisory boards for the Cambia Health Foundation Sojourns Scholars Leadership Program and the American Cancer Society’s Center for Diversity in Research Training. She serves on the national steering committee of the Coalition for Social Work and Health. Her research, supported by major grants from the National Institutes of Health and the American Cancer Society, focuses on improving care for children, adolescents, and young adults with cancer and their families. 

In addition to co-editing three acclaimed books in oncology and palliative care and publishing more than 130 articles in top-tier journals, Jones is a past recipient of the Association of Pediatric Oncology Social Workers Social Worker of the Year award and was inducted into the American Academy of Social Work and Social Welfare in 2020, where she was also elected to Board. Jones was the first social worker to receive the American Cancer Society’s Pathfinder in Palliative Care Award. She is a distinguished scholar and fellow of the National Academies of Practice and was named 2023 fellow of both the American Psychosocial Oncology Society and the Association of Oncology Social Work.

Host: Dr. Melanie Magruder (DrMelanieEmpowers)

Dr. Melanie Magruder is an accomplished, certified Leadership and Professional Development Coach recognized for guiding emerging leaders, seasoned professionals, and cross‑functional teams through transformative growth. With a reputation for clear insight, engaging presence, and practical, evidence‑based coaching, she distills complexity into clarity, strengthens alignment, and equips clients to lead with purpose in fast‑moving, high‑stakes environments.

A strategist at heart, Dr. Magruder brings deep expertise in business strategy and organizational leadership, having led and supported multimillion‑dollar initiatives across corporate, nonprofit, and community sectors. Her ability to bridge vision and execution enables her to operate seamlessly at both strategic and operational levels, delivering measurable impact through disciplined planning, stakeholder engagement, and organizational excellence.

As the creator and host of Growing Up: The Age of Your Emotions, Dr. Magruder advances a powerful mission: helping individuals develop emotional maturity as a cornerstone of effective leadership and meaningful living. Her work fosters self‑awareness, challenges limiting patterns, and expands leaders’ capacity to act with intention, empathy, and resilience.

Dr. Magruder holds a Doctorate in Management of Organizational Leadership, an MBA, and multiple certifications in coaching, adult learning, and leadership development. She is also a published author, experienced facilitator, and respected community advocate dedicated to elevating leaders and strengthening the communities they serve.

https://drmelanieempowers.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to Growing Up the Age of Your Emotions podcast. We're talking about authenticity in leadership. We have with us Dr. Barbara Jones, Dean and Professor at Boston University School of Social Work. Authenticity in leadership isn't about personality, it's about emotional maturity. It's about choosing to lead from the truth of who you are, not the version of yourself you were taught to perform. In this episode, we explore what it really means to lead as your whole self with clarity, courage, and alignment. Many leaders learn to mask, minimize, or modify themselves to fit into rooms that were never designed with them in mind. But authenticity is not a luxury. It's a skill you build, a practice you return to, and a commitment you make to yourself and the people you lead. Today, we're talking about the courage it takes to unmask and work, the emotional cost of abandoning yourself to fit in, and the power of leading from your values, even when it feels risky. Because the truth is, when you leave as yourself, you give others permission to do the same. This episode invites you to step into deeper alignment, reclaim your voice, and remember that your authenticity is not just welcome and leadership, it's required. Well, welcome everyone to Growing Up the Age of Your Emotions podcast. And I'm here with Dr. Barbara Jones. And Dr. Jones is going to share a little bit about herself and then we'll talk about authenticity and leadership, and we'll have an organic conversation. I'll ask her some questions and then we'll just see where the episode will take us. Welcome, Dr. Jones.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Thank you so much, Dr. Melanie. I'm excited to be here with you.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

All right. Well, um, tell us a little bit about um what you do, a little bit about your your background for our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Sure. So I am currently the dean of the School of Social Work at Boston University. Uh, and prior to that, I've served as a faculty member, uh, a researcher at other institutions. Um, and probably most importantly, I think in my bio is that I began as a clinical social worker. And so I started out in pediatric oncology, palliative care, uh, and many of those uh lessons that I learned as a clinical social worker still feed how I look at leadership today.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

All right. Well, thank you for um sharing a little bit about yourself with our listeners. And we'll just get right into the questions. We're talking about authenticity and leadership. And I um provided some topics um to Dr. Jones just to um, so we could at least have a framework for the conversation today. And um, one of the topics or subtopics is the courage to lead as yourself. And um, so the question is how do you navigate the tension between being real and being appropriate? It's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Um, you know, I think that when we are a leader, it's attempting to hide behind the role or the title uh or the perspective and say, okay, I'm not here. It's just this role. When in fact, everything we do is personal, right? Everything we do is relational. And so I almost don't know how not to be myself in those roles. That being said, you know, I'm somebody who also likes to have a sense of humor, likes, and you have to be mindful that in a position of power or in a position of leadership, things that you say uh while you want them to be authentic and true to you also have to be resonant and kind and respective of the relationship and uh that you're in. And so I strive, and it's not that difficult really, to be my true authentic self, but I'm also really thoughtful that if I'm interacting with somebody who works for me or uh is uh new in the field, that they may be interpreting me from that position as well. So I have to hold the both of who I am as a person and how somebody might be interacting with my position.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Okay. Well, thank you for that. Um, so how do you adapt your authenticity to different rooms without losing yourself?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah, uh, you know, I actually tried not to do that. I tried to be the same in most rooms. Like I think that if we can be grounded in who we are, then we should be able to walk into a room and people should have a sense of, okay, this is how Barbara thinks about things, this is how she uh troubles a problem, this is how she makes decisions or how she listens. And there should be some consistency on that across various settings. Now, obviously, we have to pay attention to uh what we're representing and what our role is and be mindful of those things. But I try very hard to be the same person in all the rooms I'm in uh so that people know what they're getting. You know, when I came into the role I'm in now, I've been here about three years. One of the first things that was a surprise for me, and it shouldn't have been, but it's one of those leadership moments where you have an aha, is like the people didn't know me, right? So I would say something and I would know what I meant by that. And I would realize, like, oh, no one here knows me yet. They have to learn who I am, where I had been at my prior institution for 19 years. So people had a sense of what it meant if I said or did something that I was going to follow through. And you have to earn that. You can't just walk in a room and go, no, no, it's okay. Like I really mean it. You have to earn it with your actions. And so staying really grounded and consistent uh across various settings in various rooms was important to me. Uh, in fact, one of the best compliments I got early on in my leadership journey here is one of my faculty said to me, uh, and this was part of when I realized they were evaluating, you know, can they trust me as as people do? Um, she said, you know, Barbara, I watch you. And she said, you're the same in every room. And that was the nicest compliment I may have ever gotten, because that's a that's a priority for me.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So how do how do you do that? Because I know sometimes people uh I've heard people talk about wearing um different masks, um, adapting based on the um the audience or who you're engaging with at the time. How do you manage to just be yourself no matter what the situation?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

You know, this might be where some of my clinical background really helps in that, and I'm gonna take a sort of a left turn and come back, but um when I was working with children and families facing illness, there are times that I would not have the right thing to say. All I could offer in that setting was authentic presence, was compassion, was the willingness to not run away and to say, I don't have all the solutions, but I'm gonna sit with you and I'm gonna help you hold what you're going through. And so practicing that, and I do think leadership in general is a practice, that's a muscle, right? And to get comfortable with discomfort, um those early lessons as a clinician, I think serve me now, where there are times something's happening that's difficult and maybe I would like to run screaming from the room, but I can't. I can't do that. And so then I try to just sink deeper and think, all right, how can I be calm and steady and offer my most authentic listening self in this moment? Um, and check in with what I'm feeling too, like what's going on inside of me, which often those feelings are physical, right? Like like the desire to run from a room. That is that is the clue that something's going on. So, so how do I then just say, like, I can get through, I can trust myself, I can get through this, and I can offer what I have. And I might not have the right answer, but I'm willing to sit with people through the solution.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

So just stay no matter what, just yeah, be in be present right there no matter what. Yeah, that's that that helps a lot because I like I said, I know that it's that's difficult for for some people, especially if they're not. I think you really have to get to know yourself in order for you to show up as yourself. Because um, I hear the the phrase now is be your authentic self. You can be authentic at work. And well, first you have to know who that is. Yeah, really. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

And there are still, you know, they ask the question, there are still boundaries. You know, I have to be um aware of what my role is. And so if I'm struggling with something in my life, I'm gonna have my own resources to support me. I'm not gonna ask the people who I'm trying to lead necessarily to be my counselor or my best friend. You know, I have folks, I have places I can go. You know, I have a coach, I have friends, I have a great family, like, and I go to those sources a lot and try to get fed and nurtured there so I can come in and then offer that to the community that I'm serving.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

So that's that's healthy. You you do seek support so that you can help you. What boundaries um help you stay authentic? Um which ones have you find for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Uh, you know, again, staying focused on the people in your life that feed you, right? We have to be fully fed to feed others. We have to be nurtured to nurture others. And so um staying close with my own family, with my own friends, seeking joy intentionally in my life, even when, or maybe especially when things are difficult. How can I also create moments of joy, relaxation, uh, escape for myself? You know, any of these leadership roles, you can work all the time. You really can. There's always something to do. There was always a problem, there's always someone who needs you, and you have to figure out how am I going to make the space for me to be rejuvenated, whether it's through exercise or meditation or uh relationships or literally just silliness, just having some joy and fun. Um, and I tend to that. Again, I think that having had a career in palliative care teaches you that lesson too, that life is about living and you have to grab the joy. You have to grab the moment you're in. And so I try to make sure that I do that. And and I don't always succeed. There are definitely times where I'm like, okay, that's way too many mornings of waking up, and the very first thing I do, I'm on my email, and then I'm working late into the night. And what is that doing to me? How am I, how am I showing up after a period of that? And likely not as well, you know. So I have to check that. Um, and I have to say, I've got to make sure there's some balance. There are there are always times where the balance is off, you know. In fact, I'm not even sure it's balanced because it's not an equal. It's about there are times you need to put more energy into whatever your role is, and and there are times when you have to pull back and put pour more energy back into the rest of your life and and just to keep an eye on that.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's interesting because some people I know that um one of my uh clients that I coach, um, she has an issue with that what we call balance, where she pours a lot of herself into her work, but not necessarily in self-care, like really just stepping back and asking herself, am I okay? Can I move forward? Am I, you know, being my myself 100% or whatever percentage she needs to be when but she focuses on her work all the time. And it's not it's unhealthy for her because she continues to doubt herself. And it's like, well, you got to step back and try to be as well-rounded as you can, but some people don't don't get that. Um, it could be fear-based. Oh, I might, you know, lose my job, or someone may get my position, or just different reasons why people react that way, where oh, that's the most important thing. Whereas, and I all I use the um the analogy of of putting your mask on first when you're on the plane. If I don't put mine on first, then how can I help any anybody else? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

And I think there are telltale signs, right? When the balance is off, where you're just like, okay, either you're you're short on people, you're you know, easily frustrated, uh, when the patient, when that inability to sit and be steady, like that's a sign. Uh-oh. You know what I mean? I I'm running out of my own energy. And it, you know, work when you love your work, and I really do love my work, when you love your work, it is its own reward. So we sometimes shame people for that. Like, I love my job and I love my work and I get a lot out of it, but it can't be the only thing, right? Because then I will not be well. And and I won't model wellness for my um colleagues. You know, I'm running a school of social work here. So um ideally we should be good at this, and yet sometimes we're the ones that are the biggest givers, right? So I should model when I'm able to take time off or um think about something other than work.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah.

unknown 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

So what does it look like um to build a leadership identity rooted in what matters most for you?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, wow, great question. Um what does it look like? I am always focused on people first. Uh I had uh I have a new provost at our university, and he came and met with me yesterday, and he asked me the question, what are you most proud of in the time you've been here? And I was able to say that one of the things I'm most proud of is pouring into the people, working on culture, working on communication, um, taking care of people in lots of different ways. That that that feels like something I'm super proud of. We're not done. There's lots of work to do. It's a complex system, but I've made it a huge priority to create a culture of caring and to have others reinforce that. And so that is in and of itself rewarding. So that leads me. Well, how are the people around me doing? Uh, are we taking care of the people first? There's always work to be done. And in my case, the people are faculty, staff, students, alumni, um, colleagues. Uh, so we have lots of people around us. This is a very uh robust system of humans, and we're taking care of humans. And we also have to figure out how do we create an environment where people thrive, where they say, This, I feel like I am seen here, I am valued here. That drives how I want to lead. That is one of the most important things to me, um, more than lots of other metrics. And we have lots of metrics we get measured on. Uh, but does this system create thriving? That's my that's a question that drives me.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

So, do you feel like um leading as yourself um is well received? Or um how how do people have to adapt to you? Or like you said in the beginning, they have to get to know who you are. Yeah, you have to build those relationships. But do you feel like that maybe um some people are not as receptive to that?

SPEAKER_01 15:48

I'm smirking only because probably yes, the probably is the answer is probably yes, and you know, I'm sure there are some people for whom they're like, oh yes, I really respond to this. The the trouble with being authentic is, you know, it's vulnerable, right? Like this is me. So there are people who probably really resonate with my style of leadership, and there are probably other people who do not, you know. So, and that's because again, we have a complex system of humans, and that's okay. I literally only know how to be me and how to lead from this perspective. And I see these leadership roles as you're given an opportunity to sit in a chair and to lead a school, in my case, for a period of time. How can I hold that with the utmost reverence and responsibility? Do the very best job I can from who I am. I can't be anybody else. Um, so that when I leave or the system changes, it's better off. Um and all I can do is be me. And there's always going to be people who think, oh, that is the great, that's the leadership style I really resonate with. And there's gonna be people who be like, no, that's too, you know, in my case, perhaps touchy-feely. I don't know. Um, that's too much culture of caring. Um, we just don't know because folks have different ways they want to be led and different things that inspire them. I can't be all to everything. And that was a early and an early lesson that also repeats that you cannot be all to everyone. You can be yourself and you can be authentic to yourself. And some people are gonna find that to be so exciting, and other people are gonna find it annoying. And you still only have the choice to be yourself. You can listen if there's something you're actually doing behaviorally that is not helping people or structurally that you can change. And I do think as leaders, we have a responsibility for structural change. Uh, but you can only do that from your own perspective. So I I don't know the answer to that. We have we could walk outside this room and ask a few people, but we'd probably get a variety of answers, and that's okay. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah. So when when you when you came, he's because you said you've been in your current role for three years now. Yeah. Yeah. Did you notice over time that there was a a very positive culture shift after after you arrived and started leading um the the school of social work?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great school. And so I think that I'd like to believe there was a positive culture shift, but I'd also like to believe they were already in a positive way, you know. So I think that there were certain things that I was able to pour into. My predecessor was able to leave with his own version of that. So I think schools evolve to leaders, you know, my leadership isn't any better or worse than my predecessor. It's just different. And he brought them to a certain point, and again, this is the temporary nature of leadership, handed it off to me. And then I lead from the best perspective that I can. And I focus on the things that I focus on. Um, but I do think that when you are a new leader in a system, pretty early on, you find that there are people who resonate with what you're trying to do, and they become almost the first ones that go, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. And that's helpful. That's helpful when there are people who get what you're trying to do and follow along with you or perhaps lead you in a new direction. But but they they recognize what you're trying to do and they and they respond to it in a positive way.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. Have you have you always um been your authentic self? Just as you started working, have or did you evolve and decide, hey, I really need to just show up as myself and and I'll be better for it, and so will the people that I'm working with.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

I I I like to believe, who knows? I like to believe that I have uh led with this same set of values and this perspective. Uh, I think when I was younger, it's probably much harder to do. Like I said, you have to, and like you said, we have to you have to know who you are to lead from that. So, so in the beginning, when we're first forming ourselves, we don't really know who we're we're trying on who we're gonna be. And and it's over time and challenges that you say, oh, this is what, this is the thing that's really important to me. This is the thing that I uh that I value, or this is the thing I won't tolerate, you know. Um, you know, I can get really frustrated if I think people are being unjust or unkind uh to folks in my system. That'll that'll get me riled up, you know. I didn't know that right away. I know that over time. That those are the things that I'm like, oh no, we're not doing that right now. Um so I think that you grow into it because you have to grow into who you are. It does feel better at maybe this stage of my life to be able to say, I have a sense of who I am. I think it would have been harder to take on a leadership role like this. I know people do it uh at earlier points in their career, but I resisted it actually for a long time. And in some ways, because I knew it would be difficult and challenge things, but also I don't mind challenges, but I wanted to be sure that I could add something positive, that I could lead from a perspective that would be good uh for a system. And so you have to know who you are and you have to have been tested a bit before you get to do that. So, and you also have to be maybe tough enough to say, like, okay, some people don't like what I'm doing, and I gotta just live with that. Like that takes some maturity too. I I didn't have that in my 20s and 30s. You know, I grew into that where you just have enough times where you're like, okay, and also this is who I am, and I'll do the best I can and I'll uh lead from this perspective.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Abby, you have you ever felt that um being your authentic self required more courage than comfort?

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yes, absolutely. I like I said, I think if we really lead from who we are, it isn't it is an exercise in vulnerability. It's easier, I think, to be sort of um distant, uh, just the role, sort of hide behind a facade. If you want to say to people, we're gonna go forward, and here's a vision I have, and you may or may not like it, but I'm gonna take a risk and tell you about what I think needs to happen, and I'm gonna be my true self, recognizing that if you reject that, you may in fact be rejecting me. Uh that takes That takes a lot of courage that says, okay, I'm putting myself out there. I'm going to be vulnerable. And I definitely feel like that has happened. Um, and early on in this leadership role, I I felt that like, okay, these folks don't know me. They, I don't know how I'm gonna do. This is a new role for me. I think you know, somebody hired me. No, um, and we all have imposter syndrome on some level, right? And then at some point, I think you just dig in and you say, I'm gonna do the best I can. I've been given this uh responsibility. I will hold it with respect, I will do the best I can. I will do it as me and see where that takes us. And um, that's all I can offer to the equation. Uh, I but I hope the me that is leading is also growing. I've changed, I've learned from my colleagues, from my faculty, from my staff, from my students. I learn things all the time where I'm like, I had not seen it that way. Thank you for that perspective. And again, we all enter the world with our own perspective. Well, how do I enter a room? How am I seen? Um, all of those things, it would be different for different colleagues, and I have to always learn from them.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah, that's that's um that's interesting because I know that um that vulnerability of having that imposter syndrome and just going forward anyway, just doing it with what is it, do it afraid or do it scared. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you just have to continue moving. And most often the results are are positive or um the expected outcome that you have initially. Um, and I think sometimes when when there's that doubt or when you change course because you want to please other people versus doing what you believe is the right thing to do, I think that that's when um the tables turn and maybe you have to pivot and revisit your initial outcome because you changed course. Why did you change course? You were on a good one, so why didn't you decide that, oh, this is a better one? And that's because you, the person allowed other things um environmentally or different personalities to impact what you knew was the you believed was the right thing to do in in the first place. Yeah, I see that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

I think you're absolutely right. And I think that most people given the opportunity when they recognize someone as being their true self and taking a risk, they respond well to that. That's something that most folks want in a leader, I believe, you know, and and they don't want a transactional, just a transactional approach. They want a relational approach. And so they want to be seen and valued. Um, but that has to happen from a place of of honesty and vulnerability.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Do you think authenticity is a leadership skill or is it part of a personality trait?

SPEAKER_01 24:54

I think I'm gonna say yes, Anne, to all your wonderful questions. I think yes, and I think yes, Anne. I think it is a I think some it may be a personality trait, and I think it's something we can we can skill up. So sometimes when I'm afraid, I have to re remind myself to be authentic. Um remind myself to trust myself is actually more accurate. I can think of one time when I was walking into a a meeting here, um, and I think it was with some of my faculty, and I don't remember the topic, but I remember that I was gonna have to either share something difficult or engage in a conversation that was gonna be hard. And I was afraid. I was like, uh-oh, you know what I mean? Just one of those moments where you're like, I take a deep breath. And and and I um walked in the room and just sort of instead of engaging in the fear and the what-ifs and what's gonna happen and what are they gonna think, I took a breath and I looked around the room and I saw the people in the room. And I had this sense of, I genuinely like and respect all of these people. I trust they're gonna be able to have this conversation with me. Like these are really good, smart people, and they want the same thing I do, which is what is best for this school. And if I'm just really honest with them about what we're facing, I think they'll engage with me in reciprocity. And that's exactly what happened. Um, but I could catch myself tensing, you know, sort of putting the shield up. And then I was like, I'm gonna put the, I'm actually gonna do the opposite. I'm gonna put the shield down and see who's in this room and see their humanity and hope they see mine in this difficult conversation. Um, and and that that's what happened in that setting. I don't remember the topic. So either it was so bad that I blocked it out, or um, or it went so well. I don't know which, but either way, I remember that it was a conscious. So that's why I say it's a skill, because it was a decision I made in that minute to soften, actually, and to open as opposed to close. I wanted to close up. I was a little scared and I wanted just like protect. And I was like, I think I'm gonna do the opposite of that. I'm gonna open up and see what that feels like and where that takes us. And it in that setting, in that conversation, it it took us to an to an authentic, honest place.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah, that's that's um something that I think people need to know how to do. How did you get to that that place? Because as I said before, most often people will change their um perspective or what they want the outcome to be based on that fear. Okay, I'm walking into this room and you're thinking, uh-oh, oh, I better, you know, do something else versus, hey, you know what, let me take this wall down that I have up and I'm just gonna do what I had planned. I believe these people will be receptive and it'll be a great meeting. How do you, how do you know that that's something that that you should move forward with versus changing based on, you know, who's in the room?

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yeah, great again, great question. I think that um I'm gonna go back again to some of the clinical work. There were so many moments in my clinical experience where I recognized I was walking into a room where I wished I had different answers. I wish I had something different to say than what was really happening. I mean, when you're working with children facing illness and their parents, you it's hard. And you are dealing with some of the most difficult moments in someone's life, and they're trusting you to sit with them in that. And you want to say, this isn't happening. I can fix this, and you cannot fix it. And it is a very unique sense of helplessness to not be able to take away somebody's pain and then to recognize that's not your job. Your job is to hold the pain, sit with the pain, not be afraid of it, not close up and run away, because a lot of people are gonna close up and run away. And these folks need witness, they need holding. They don't they need someone who can just sit in the mud puddle and just say, this is really hard. And so I think I've I got to work that that very difficult skill early on, and it speeds my uh way that I handle difficult conversations now. Um that there is some when you have nothing to offer, offering authentic presence is something.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah, that is something. Just to that is actually something yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have any any tools or um strategies or tips that you can give people on how they can be authentic in leadership?

SPEAKER_01 29:37

I think we all need our own mirror, right? So I have a coach. I've had more than one coach. Sometimes I had multiple ones, sometimes apparently I needed more than one. Um, but I have a coach who helps me check me, you know, um, a place where I'm not responsible for the decision. I'm responsible for growing. And so I'm on my own journey. I'm often reading leadership books. Uh, I'm learning, like I said, from my own faculty, staff, and students about uh how they enter a problem, how they understand a dilemma, um, what they might do, even if it's different than me, let me understand what door are you walking through to understand this problem? Oh, okay, that's why you see it that way. So being super humble about the fact that you do not have the answers. Uh, I do not have the answers. And I have to keep growing, keep holding a mirror up to myself. If I'm only uh if I'm only looking around at everyone else and sort of saying, well, I know what's going on here, and I'm not looking at myself, then we're going nowhere. You know, uh, my authenticity, authenticity is gonna stall really quickly. Um, and and who I am as a person, I hope doesn't stop growing. So checking myself with others who know me well and say, what's going on here? How can I enter this? And what's lovely, and I know you're a coach as well, what's lovely about my relationship with my coach is I've worked with her long enough that now something will come up and she'll be like, okay, Barbara, that, you know, on your values, on your leadership style, there's no way you're gonna do that thing over there that you just said, you know, if you're considering options, that's just not you. You're not, you know, you're not gonna do that. So let's, you know, so she knows me well enough and she'll sort of give me that mirror back. Or she'll say, you're anticipating this pathway, and yet what you've told me about what is important to you is this. So I'm curious why you're looking at that path. And she'll hold that mirror up. And I you can't, even some of the questions you've asked me today, Dr. Molly, I'm like, I don't know the answer to that because I'm trying to look at myself from the inside of myself and I don't know. And we all want to have a favorable view of ourselves. And perhaps I'm absolutely wrong. No. Um, but but it helps to have those intentional mirrors. So family, friends, and professionals um who will, and when I was in clinical practice, I had a therapist that helped me through that work, helped me hold the things I was holding. Now, as a professional leader, I have a coach who helps me think through what do I want to do next? I sometimes have naughty problems. I don't know what I want to do next. But where I land and where she helps me land is what's most authentic to you, given the set of, you know, unfavorable choices that you have in front of you today, which is the one that most matches who you are and how you want to lead. And if I can get to that, then I, and you know, and usually for me that's about sort of not doing harm and you know improving the system and making it better for people. If I can, if I can get to that, then I can get behind that decision. But it's about being willing to know myself and even the parts that sometimes you're like, oh dear, I don't like how I handled that. Let me actually just apologize for that one.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

So you said that you look internally and then a mirror is held up so that you can really see. Has that um changed a lot over time as you've got you know had um support from a therapist and a coach? Has that the the view that you see in that mirror, has that changed a lot for you?

SPEAKER_01 33:04

I think it has sharpened. I think I'm clearer about who I am and I'm a little more brave about being that person. That being said, I think as leaders, we have to continually do this because it's sort of like if you're not careful as a leader, you can just believe your own hype. You know what I mean? And you can also like we have to stay humble, right? And we have to um get sometimes I seek differing opinions, you know, like is there um I'll walk around and talk with my staff or just, you know, what's a perspective I'm not getting because, you know, we're all very busy and I have certain people who surround me who are giving me information. Great. But what's a perspective I'm not hearing? How do I get that feedback? Um, and and you have to seek it. And then you have to have those folks feel like they could trust you and giving you honest feedback. And so, um, yeah, so I think I'm I I like to think I've become more myself. Um, but I also like to think that I'm open to growing and changing as I as I face new new dilemmas. And the situation can impact that. So now I'm leading a school of social work, which I feel like I'm in my home. You know, this is these are my people. And um, even if, you know, it's not always, you know, everything's not always perfect. We we have the same set of values, we know where we're going. Uh, I had a leadership role where um I was the chair of a department in a medical school, and I was the only social worker that was the chair of a department in this medical school. And it was a really interesting leadership role because everyone else was physicians. Um, so there's a power differential right there between physicians and social workers. Uh, there were some people who were not excited that I had been put into this leadership role. Um, they were not excited to have a different discipline at the table, equal. And in the beginning, I could catch myself being a little fearful, being a little tucked in, you know, and having to really dig deep and say, no, my role here is to represent my department. My role here is to represent my profession. And to, I was the one that perhaps was bringing the alternative voice to something and say, have we considered that this might be how this decision we're making is going to impact patients and families? Um, have we considered this might be how this impacts professionals like nurses, social workers, uh, psychologists? So, so, but it took some courage because the power differential was so big. And uh I still was trying to be authentic, but it definitely took a little more like what's but you know, inside talk before you could get to your point. And then I kind of got more comfortable with that role.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yeah, that that seems like it would, especially if you're around physicians and your your role is equal to theirs, but they, you know, from their perspective, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

What are you doing here? And some of them were great, not all of them. Let me say I had tremendous allies, including the dean of that medical school, who put me in that position, but um, who was somebody who was intentionally sharing power, right, by putting me in that position. But there were folks in the room for whom they were like, why is this person here? You know, and it wasn't personal. That's the other thing, that whole take nothing personally. That I get to you get to practice that one every day. Whew, that one repeats, but it wasn't personal. And yet it could feel personal. And if I'm trying to practice from an authentic place, then it really feels personal because I am the authentic person in the room. And then I just said, I've got this is my my job here, is actually an advocacy role. Often I'm speaking up for a voice that isn't often heard. And if I have the privilege of being at this table, it is my responsibility to bring as many voices into this room as I can. Um, and that helped me find my courage.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Yeah, you see you sound very confident in your authenticity, that it's really grounded and you understand that it takes vulnerability and walking through the fear gate and just following up to great advice for for people or or guidance to just do this and then you know it'll turn out okay. But did you all position that you're in now, your path as far as your your career, because you mentioned earlier that you resisted leadership a bit, but now you're you're here and you've been here in this role for three years. Did you did you always believe that you could end up here, or was it just something that your road um to your in your career just pivoted a bit?

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Absolutely not. I'm still some surprise. Sometimes I'm surprised sometimes I want to introduce myself and still say, Did I just am I the dean? And I don't mean that to be falsely humble at all. I will give you some context. I am a first gen college student. Um, and so the fact that I went to college was shocking and wonderful to me. So then to pursue additional degrees and to end up in these leadership roles is still sometimes a surprise. Um, and yet I also think it's important to be authentic about that. So, for example, I try to uh I do this uh series that called Dinners with the Dean, and I have dinner um uh with some of my students. And it's just we order good food and we talk about things and I say this isn't where we're gonna solve problems, but I literally want to know about you as people and career and blah, blah, blah. And in those settings, I will be intentional about sharing that I was first gen, because I think it's important for people to hear that, to recognize that sometimes you don't see yourself in this leadership role or being in the front of the rooms that you're intimidated by, but you could end up there, and then it's your responsibility. I always say this, once you get inside a door, it's your responsibility to jam your foot in the door and get everybody else in too. Like don't just go on and be like, yay, me. Like, say, how do I bring everybody else? How do I lift others? Well, that is my the if I go higher in leadership or I get into a privileged space, it is my absolute like psychic responsibility to lift others and to bring others to that space. And so um, so it is, it has been shocking. Um, and yet I am, I like I said, I view leadership like a practice, like a meditation, like it's something we practice, which when you look at something as a practice, you can always get better at it. You can always, and you can also fail at it. Like you're not, it's not perfect. I'm not, this is how I do it, and every day is great. No, there are days I walk around and go, oh my God, what if I just how am I going to, oh no, you know what I mean? And then I think it's a practice, and I have to trust myself. I'm gonna do the best I can with this particular moment. Um, and then there are other moments that are absolutely joyous and rewarding, like when you really can lift somebody up, give, you know, bring somebody into a new permission position, help promote somebody, help somebody have the resources they need to fulfill their dreams. Those things just light me up. And that's the that's the fun part, as it were. And so the responsibility is also an honor, right? And how do I share that? So, so no, I didn't see this as a path. Um, social work wasn't a surprising path. I was sort of tracked to social work early on and I tried to resist that too. But apparently I'm not for all this mirror business, apparently I'm not very good at it because I sometimes end up places I didn't expect. But um, but I the social work part wasn't a surprise, but the leadership one was. And uh and then I think, okay, well, I gotta, I gotta do this with the most integrity that I can.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

That's um very grounding, um, a very grounding response. And I'm sure that our listeners um would like to just hear any um advice or guidance that you can give someone that may be in a new leadership role or that may be at the door of a new leadership role, and they're just anticipating, you know, whether or not they're gonna make the decision to walk through, or if they're gonna stay on the other side of that. Do you have any anything to share?

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Uh well, the first is trust yourself. Um, and I would certainly say that anybody who uh here's the thing: there's lots of people who step into leadership with a lot of hubris and a lot less. You know what I mean? Like, like women, people of color, LGBTQ folks, believe in yourself. There's lots of people who have privilege and just walk into leadership roles without a second to think about it. We pause, we we say, maybe should I do I deserve to be? Yes, you deserve to be there. In fact, we need you, and we need you to be there. So um I would ask people to dig deep into what do you bring that this this system needs, um, that this community needs. And it's probably much deeper than you even know. Um, and there are lots of people who just through the nature of how our society rewards and gives people privilege, comfortably take on leadership. Uh, I think more of us that are uncomfortable with leadership should just step right in. I really do. Um, maybe it's those of us that are uncomfortable that should lead. Yeah, just an offering. Uh, so so that's that's my sort of flip the tables perspective on that. And then so there's this whole trust yourself, right? And then the minute you get there, remember to take nothing personally. So that's a really hard tension to hold. Like, here I am, I'm trusting myself. It feels really, really personal. Oh no, you know what I mean? Everybody doesn't like me. Uh, you have to kind of say, what is my job? What is my role? It isn't about me, it's about how I steady this ship, whatever the ship is that you're being asked to lead. How do you do your very best job and and stay super humble that it's temporary? Somebody's gonna come behind you and somebody was before you, and they did their best job, and the people behind you are gonna do their best job. You just have this for a moment in time. This is your moment. What can you do with it? How can you help people with this moment? Um, yeah. So that's kind of my perspective on that one.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Well, thank you so much for um this invigorating conversation. I I just love your responses. And I did pick up a few nuggets that I could use myself. So I really appreciate that. And do you have any any parting words for our listeners? Anything you want to share before we close?

SPEAKER_01 43:19

I think that I would just offer if the opportunity is in front of you and it's going to further you or something you believe in, say yes. There's lots of things, and would say say yes. Say yes to that scary opportunity, because you might be able to really make a difference. So um trust yourself and say yes. And I think you, Dr. Melanie, I've loved our conversation. I've been learning from you this whole time. So um, and we have lots of good friends in common with very similar values. So it was wonderful to get connected with you.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Yes. Thank you so much. All right, everyone, you've been listening to Dr. Barbara Jones with us at the podcast Growing Up the Age of Your Emotions. And we will post the episode and we'll see you next time. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, I hope you enjoyed the episode of Growing Up the Age of Your Emotions. And I would like to offer you a free five-week leadership strategies course. All you have to do is register, is deliver to your email once a week for five weeks, and then give me feedback. Let me know how this course has helped you. If there's additional information that you would like for me to share, all you have to do is register. The link is available in the description. And if you can't find it, just contact me at contact at drmelaniepowers.com. I hope you will continue to listen to our podcast and support us. Until next time.